A blog about gadgets and green stuffhttp://www.jaffacake.net/en-usWed, 25 Jan 2012 17:35:13 +0100 Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:35:13 +0100 Gordon Cochrane Honda CR-Z - Conscience without Compromise
I first saw it 'on-line' by accident, fell in love with it bought one the same day. Silver 6MT, Canadian version No Nav system.

I do not like the Nav unit / Sound system looks. The Nav unit interface is years out of date. Honda should update this look / interface. I have the 'non Nav' 360Watt system. Great sound as you said. I read somewhere that Honda uses Alpine components.

In Canada and the U.S. we do NOT get the rear seats. Do not want them anyhow.

Enjoy. Gord ex from Cheam, Surrey, U.K.]]>
I first saw it 'on-line' by accident, fell in love with it bought one the same day. Silver 6MT, Canadian version No Nav system.

I do not like the Nav unit / Sound system looks. The Nav unit interface is years out of date. Honda should update this look / interface. I have the 'non Nav' 360Watt system. Great sound as you said. I read somewhere that Honda uses Alpine components.

In Canada and the U.S. we do NOT get the rear seats. Do not want them anyhow.

Enjoy. Gord ex from Cheam, Surrey, U.K.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/hondacrz?opendocument&comments#01252012053513PMDOMNMK.htm Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:48:56 +0100 Thomas Thorsten Jaffacake Mail Template http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/jaffacake-mail-template?opendocument&comments#01202012094856AMDOMDJ5.htm Tue, 10 Jan 2012 21:07:59 +0100 Perro Gareth has a new baby! http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/gareth-has-a-new-baby?opendocument&comments#10-01-2012210759DOMSSJ.htm Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:54:23 +0100 unsecure_key Dear HSBC Link }]]> Link }]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/dear-hsbc?opendocument&comments#10132011025423PMDOMJBJ.htm Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:53:48 +0100 James B-T Prius Plug-in Hybrid - Part Four - Home Charging http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/prius-plug-in-hybrid-part-four-home-charging?opendocument&comments#15092011135348DOMH5P.htm Fri, 9 Sep 2011 18:48:15 +0100 James Hind Can Anybody Get it Right?
Though I'm not a fan of Ocado's website, the service is consistently great.]]>
Though I'm not a fan of Ocado's website, the service is consistently great.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/can-anybody-get-it-right?opendocument&comments#09092011184815DOMNVQ.htm Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:57:06 +0100 Clive Sinclair Vauxhall Ampera - Any Colour but Green!
Price! You simply cannot avoid the fact that many people will not, or more accurately can't afford to buy these cars.

Sure the overall running cost may be lower on some vehicles, but you still have to buy the damn things. Leasing one? That's still going to increase a persons monthly transport costs by a lot more than they are currently paying.

Facts, surveys, studies and the Mark 1 eyeball all show that the vast majority of vehicles on our roads all have one thing in common... that one thing? The driver - and usually on his own. How many vehicles have you all seen in the last 24 hours with four people on board - compared to ones with driver or driver/front seat passenger?

Currently the most popular selling and affordable vehicles in the UK are the Supermini eco diesels. Easily getting real world MPG of 60mpg and more and in VED A or B. Add to this the price range of £12000+.

Unsurprising that the top 10 most fuel efficient cars that you can get in the UK today, based on their combined fuel efficiency figure are diesel superminis.

And with fuel tanks around 10 gallons (UK), that means most will have a minimum range of 600 miles.

High MPG, low CO2, good range and low purchase cost - those are the simply the priorities 'real' people put first when buying a new vehicle. They simple don't buy into this 'the average daily journey is jus 12 miles' (or whatever it is today). And they cannot afford to go from a £15k car to a £25 car.

But what they are seeing is the car they paid £12-15k 5 years ago is now doing 60mpg+, rather than their old 40mpg and their road tax will be a lot less.]]>
Price! You simply cannot avoid the fact that many people will not, or more accurately can't afford to buy these cars.

Sure the overall running cost may be lower on some vehicles, but you still have to buy the damn things. Leasing one? That's still going to increase a persons monthly transport costs by a lot more than they are currently paying.

Facts, surveys, studies and the Mark 1 eyeball all show that the vast majority of vehicles on our roads all have one thing in common... that one thing? The driver - and usually on his own. How many vehicles have you all seen in the last 24 hours with four people on board - compared to ones with driver or driver/front seat passenger?

Currently the most popular selling and affordable vehicles in the UK are the Supermini eco diesels. Easily getting real world MPG of 60mpg and more and in VED A or B. Add to this the price range of £12000+.

Unsurprising that the top 10 most fuel efficient cars that you can get in the UK today, based on their combined fuel efficiency figure are diesel superminis.

And with fuel tanks around 10 gallons (UK), that means most will have a minimum range of 600 miles.

High MPG, low CO2, good range and low purchase cost - those are the simply the priorities 'real' people put first when buying a new vehicle. They simple don't buy into this 'the average daily journey is jus 12 miles' (or whatever it is today). And they cannot afford to go from a £15k car to a £25 car.

But what they are seeing is the car they paid £12-15k 5 years ago is now doing 60mpg+, rather than their old 40mpg and their road tax will be a lot less.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/vauxhall-ampera-any-colour-but-green?opendocument&comments#09082011085706AMDOMBC9.htm Wed, 7 Sep 2011 11:48:32 +0100 MartinDrapper Prius Plug-in Hybrid - Part Five - How Does it Drive? http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/prius-plug-in-hybrid-part-five-how-does-it-drive?opendocument&comments#09072011114832AMDOMEPD.htm Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:15:19 +0100 Ben Rose Prius Plug-in Hybrid - Part Five - How Does it Drive?
A fair comment, I think you may have been at the same event?

Whilst the LEAF launch may not have been an extended test drive, like I've been fortunate enough to have with many other models, it was still considerably more than your average dealer drive up the road and back.

I was keen to keep out of my report some of the stuff in which my opinion may have changed over time. Stuff like outward visibility is hard to judge until you get accustomed to the new positions of A/B pillars etc. For example, nn a short drive, I'd have criticised the split rear window of the Prius. But I got used to it in no time at all and it became a non-issue.

Contrastingly, overall seat comfort is something I didn't mention. Only time will tell in that area so there was no point in relaying my comparative opinion between the two cars as I'd had a different length of time in each.

Stuff like the air-conditioning can, however, be easily judged in the time we had available. It took no time at all on a warm day to conclude that we were a bit warm compared to the setting on the climate control.

Likewise, the driving modes would have done that on any day of the week.

It also helped a lot to be partnered up with a very accomplished journalist and share opinions back in the press room between test-drive sessions.

Basically, I was keen to keep any potentially ill judged "first impressions" out of the write-up. I was particularly annoyed by a very high pitched whistling noise (quite common with high voltage electricity) that I heard when driving the LEAF but, as nobody else in the dozens of write-ups I've seen mentioned it, I figured it was just me and kept it out in the end.

You're right, you probably don't see me say much good stuff about the LEAF but all of my articles have been based on theory and financial analysis until now. My only real issues have ever been about its questionable environmental benefits and cost of ownership. It's actually a really nice car, if you can get around the look, I just wish it was better value and would make a more significant contribution to reducing climate change.]]>
A fair comment, I think you may have been at the same event?

Whilst the LEAF launch may not have been an extended test drive, like I've been fortunate enough to have with many other models, it was still considerably more than your average dealer drive up the road and back.

I was keen to keep out of my report some of the stuff in which my opinion may have changed over time. Stuff like outward visibility is hard to judge until you get accustomed to the new positions of A/B pillars etc. For example, nn a short drive, I'd have criticised the split rear window of the Prius. But I got used to it in no time at all and it became a non-issue.

Contrastingly, overall seat comfort is something I didn't mention. Only time will tell in that area so there was no point in relaying my comparative opinion between the two cars as I'd had a different length of time in each.

Stuff like the air-conditioning can, however, be easily judged in the time we had available. It took no time at all on a warm day to conclude that we were a bit warm compared to the setting on the climate control.

Likewise, the driving modes would have done that on any day of the week.

It also helped a lot to be partnered up with a very accomplished journalist and share opinions back in the press room between test-drive sessions.

Basically, I was keen to keep any potentially ill judged "first impressions" out of the write-up. I was particularly annoyed by a very high pitched whistling noise (quite common with high voltage electricity) that I heard when driving the LEAF but, as nobody else in the dozens of write-ups I've seen mentioned it, I figured it was just me and kept it out in the end.

You're right, you probably don't see me say much good stuff about the LEAF but all of my articles have been based on theory and financial analysis until now. My only real issues have ever been about its questionable environmental benefits and cost of ownership. It's actually a really nice car, if you can get around the look, I just wish it was better value and would make a more significant contribution to reducing climate change.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/prius-plug-in-hybrid-part-five-how-does-it-drive?opendocument&comments#06092011191519DOMPEM.htm Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:37:04 +0100 Tom Prius Plug-in Hybrid - Part Five - How Does it Drive?
It seems strange that you start by saying: "There are things that you'll never pick up on a quick drive around the block," and then proceed to compare the Prius to a car that, comparatively speaking, you only had a short time to test...

Still, I'm amazed to see you compliment the Leaf for the first time.]]>
It seems strange that you start by saying: "There are things that you'll never pick up on a quick drive around the block," and then proceed to compare the Prius to a car that, comparatively speaking, you only had a short time to test...

Still, I'm amazed to see you compliment the Leaf for the first time.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/prius-plug-in-hybrid-part-five-how-does-it-drive?opendocument&comments#06092011173704DOMMH8.htm Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:16:50 +0100 Richard Lawson How Many Electric Car Owners Does It Take To Change a 60W Lightbulb?
The 1% wastage figure comes from data sent personally to me by someone in a Grid balancing agency. As you know the Grid has to do a delicate balancing act to match supply and demand - ready for half time in a Cup match, when everyone puts their electric kettle on &c.

From the data I found that the grid is 1% of the time in overproduction, 1% is underproduction.

In reality though, in the scheme of things, 1% is within the margin of error for the type of numbers we are talking about. So, should be burn off 1%, it's as good as using it all.

I dont think it can be explained away as margin of error: these were precise real-time figures, applying to an acknowleged effect that absorba a lot of grid supply effort.

Why are we constantly buying in grid supply from France, Ireland and the Netherlands?

I guess to match up gross disparities that occur, for instance, when nukes go down (talk about "intermittent"...)

"EV batteries can also feed back into the grid at tomes of undersupply" - they can, but do they?

This is just a gleam in the engineers' eye at the moment, but it is being discussed, and will come through eventually.

Finally, regarding my question of your employer, if you did not work for Toyota, you would have said so, so I infer that you do. Now why would Toyota want to dis the EV?]]>
The 1% wastage figure comes from data sent personally to me by someone in a Grid balancing agency. As you know the Grid has to do a delicate balancing act to match supply and demand - ready for half time in a Cup match, when everyone puts their electric kettle on &c.

From the data I found that the grid is 1% of the time in overproduction, 1% is underproduction.

In reality though, in the scheme of things, 1% is within the margin of error for the type of numbers we are talking about. So, should be burn off 1%, it's as good as using it all.

I dont think it can be explained away as margin of error: these were precise real-time figures, applying to an acknowleged effect that absorba a lot of grid supply effort.

Why are we constantly buying in grid supply from France, Ireland and the Netherlands?

I guess to match up gross disparities that occur, for instance, when nukes go down (talk about "intermittent"...)

"EV batteries can also feed back into the grid at tomes of undersupply" - they can, but do they?

This is just a gleam in the engineers' eye at the moment, but it is being discussed, and will come through eventually.

Finally, regarding my question of your employer, if you did not work for Toyota, you would have said so, so I infer that you do. Now why would Toyota want to dis the EV?]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/how-many-electric-car-owners-does-it-take-to-change-a-60W-lightbulb?opendocument&comments#09052011011650PMDOMGEK.htm Mon, 5 Sep 2011 02:37:40 +0100 chelsea sexton How Many Electric Car Owners Does It Take To Change a 60W Lightbulb?
Hi Ben,

Ok, so this sounds more like a speculative or philosophical assessment than an objective one. I understand the types of things you're citing to speak of efficiency differences, and yet as a technology, EVs are proven to be better in terms of CO2 than you think. If you want to talk price per gram of CO2 savings, that might be a different story- but I was responding to your original premise of whether EVs were better on CO2 to begin with.

Given that the minimum warranties were seeing on the Leaf and Volt are 8 years/100k miles (which next year become 10yr/150k miles for Volt, Prius, and Ford Energi at least), it's fair to assume 112k miles is possible on the original pack. Range will degrade some, but not enough to render the car unable to accomplish a average daily driving.

Finally, I see the point about you, in particular, using the 2nd gas car more. But again, if we're assessing the merits of the technology for the typical consumer, we have to use what those driving patterns generally are. I'm happy to add in the gas car use to the EV to make a true comparison, but we'd need to determine what trips we're talking about that are truly out of the range of the EV (and I'm not talking about charging a bunch of times in the middle to make it) but that also aren't likely to be accomplished by another form of transport. Here, even the Volt drivers are averaging around 80% of their miles in EV mode. I'm sure some of those are taking actual long trips with the other 20%, while others are probably just exceeding the Volt range but still staying within the range of an EV. So if we meet in the middle and assume that 10%, or 1200 mile/year are done with a second car, and add the respective CO2 use to the EV based on the data in the study, the EV comes out 28% better than a petrol car, and 22% better than a diesel. That 10% may be high or low depending on average UK driving patterns, which is why I was asking if there was any data anywhere on the longer trips.

Whether that 22 or 28% is worth paying the incremental cost for a plug-in, depends on whether CO2 is your main motivation for the purchase. Given how much vehicles are and emotional purchase, that tends not to be the primary (or even secondary) motivating factor for EV purchases in the US market over the last 15 years, but perhaps it's different there?]]>
Hi Ben,

Ok, so this sounds more like a speculative or philosophical assessment than an objective one. I understand the types of things you're citing to speak of efficiency differences, and yet as a technology, EVs are proven to be better in terms of CO2 than you think. If you want to talk price per gram of CO2 savings, that might be a different story- but I was responding to your original premise of whether EVs were better on CO2 to begin with.

Given that the minimum warranties were seeing on the Leaf and Volt are 8 years/100k miles (which next year become 10yr/150k miles for Volt, Prius, and Ford Energi at least), it's fair to assume 112k miles is possible on the original pack. Range will degrade some, but not enough to render the car unable to accomplish a average daily driving.

Finally, I see the point about you, in particular, using the 2nd gas car more. But again, if we're assessing the merits of the technology for the typical consumer, we have to use what those driving patterns generally are. I'm happy to add in the gas car use to the EV to make a true comparison, but we'd need to determine what trips we're talking about that are truly out of the range of the EV (and I'm not talking about charging a bunch of times in the middle to make it) but that also aren't likely to be accomplished by another form of transport. Here, even the Volt drivers are averaging around 80% of their miles in EV mode. I'm sure some of those are taking actual long trips with the other 20%, while others are probably just exceeding the Volt range but still staying within the range of an EV. So if we meet in the middle and assume that 10%, or 1200 mile/year are done with a second car, and add the respective CO2 use to the EV based on the data in the study, the EV comes out 28% better than a petrol car, and 22% better than a diesel. That 10% may be high or low depending on average UK driving patterns, which is why I was asking if there was any data anywhere on the longer trips.

Whether that 22 or 28% is worth paying the incremental cost for a plug-in, depends on whether CO2 is your main motivation for the purchase. Given how much vehicles are and emotional purchase, that tends not to be the primary (or even secondary) motivating factor for EV purchases in the US market over the last 15 years, but perhaps it's different there?]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/how-many-electric-car-owners-does-it-take-to-change-a-60W-lightbulb?opendocument&comments#09052011023740AMDOM3X4.htm Mon, 5 Sep 2011 01:21:57 +0100 Ben Rose How Many Electric Car Owners Does It Take To Change a 60W Lightbulb?
Thanks for the link, will take a look when I find a moment - little point in responding to that part until I have. As it's 1am here, not going to be tonight.

180,000km is 112,500 miles - seems to be quite a distance if we're talking the original battery pack. Or maybe it takes replacement battery modules into account in the life cycle? I'm not saying a new EV isn't capable of doing that distance on one battery pack but I do feel that the range at that point, after normal usage, may be so decreased that the car is somewhat unusable. I'm basing this on both the total distance and the time it would take to hit that mileage based on short journeys in a low range EV.

Average mileage and average length of trip is an interesting stat but doesn't always tell the full story. I could easily manage my work commute each day in an Electric Vehicle. So 52 weeks, 5 times a week, that's 260 journeys a year. Many of my other local journeys are also achievable. However, when I recently borrowed a plug-in hybrid, my EV miles were actually less than 25% of the total mileage. I may do a large percentage of journeys under a long distance but most of my miles are clocked up on journeys over the typical range of an EV. So on paper, an EV looks good. In practice, I'd do more miles in my "other" car.

I'm comparing to a specific EV as it's the most well know of the few that are available in the UK. It's also the best range/charge balance of those currently on sale, until the Renaults hit the market - which will do the same range on less electricity. I think it's fair to use the Leaf for comparative purposes.

I'm not assuming that the second vehicle will always be a dirtier diesel, that was just a personal observation based on all the current owners that I know of - nothing more. There does appear to be a bit of a pattern there though.

Be careful comparing the Cd of 2 vehicles, they aren't at all directly comparable. The Cd measures the air resistance of the vehicle vs. a block of the same cross sectional area and length. It's very easy for 2 cars to have the same Cd but total different wind resistances. Likewise, a car with a low Cd may actually have a higher wind resistance to one with a high Cd. Being half the resistance of a small block is obviously better than being half the resistance of a large block.

The Prius and Leaf have a very different cross sectional area so the Cd aren't directly comparable. What you need to use is the CdA figure, which also takes that cross sectional area into account.

For example, a 2004 Toyota Prius has a Cd of 0.26 and a CdA of 6.24 sq ft. The Opel Calibra from 1989 also has the same Cd of 0.26 but a CdA figure of 5.40 sq ft - considerably less as the Opel is actually more aerodynamic overall.

So whilst the current Prius has a better Cd of 0.25 compared to the Leaf's 0.29, the CdA may show more difference between the two as the Leaf's high roofline creates a rather large cross sectional area.

My conclusions simply compare the "best" EV with petrol vehicles that can be bought for the same or less money. When buying the Leaf, the customer is already well into the price bracket of some of the best petrol hybrid options so I see no reason not to compare them.

If I was suggesting the customer spent more on my proposed alternative option, I could see your perspective, but I'm pointing out "better" options that actually cost less.]]>
Thanks for the link, will take a look when I find a moment - little point in responding to that part until I have. As it's 1am here, not going to be tonight.

180,000km is 112,500 miles - seems to be quite a distance if we're talking the original battery pack. Or maybe it takes replacement battery modules into account in the life cycle? I'm not saying a new EV isn't capable of doing that distance on one battery pack but I do feel that the range at that point, after normal usage, may be so decreased that the car is somewhat unusable. I'm basing this on both the total distance and the time it would take to hit that mileage based on short journeys in a low range EV.

Average mileage and average length of trip is an interesting stat but doesn't always tell the full story. I could easily manage my work commute each day in an Electric Vehicle. So 52 weeks, 5 times a week, that's 260 journeys a year. Many of my other local journeys are also achievable. However, when I recently borrowed a plug-in hybrid, my EV miles were actually less than 25% of the total mileage. I may do a large percentage of journeys under a long distance but most of my miles are clocked up on journeys over the typical range of an EV. So on paper, an EV looks good. In practice, I'd do more miles in my "other" car.

I'm comparing to a specific EV as it's the most well know of the few that are available in the UK. It's also the best range/charge balance of those currently on sale, until the Renaults hit the market - which will do the same range on less electricity. I think it's fair to use the Leaf for comparative purposes.

I'm not assuming that the second vehicle will always be a dirtier diesel, that was just a personal observation based on all the current owners that I know of - nothing more. There does appear to be a bit of a pattern there though.

Be careful comparing the Cd of 2 vehicles, they aren't at all directly comparable. The Cd measures the air resistance of the vehicle vs. a block of the same cross sectional area and length. It's very easy for 2 cars to have the same Cd but total different wind resistances. Likewise, a car with a low Cd may actually have a higher wind resistance to one with a high Cd. Being half the resistance of a small block is obviously better than being half the resistance of a large block.

The Prius and Leaf have a very different cross sectional area so the Cd aren't directly comparable. What you need to use is the CdA figure, which also takes that cross sectional area into account.

For example, a 2004 Toyota Prius has a Cd of 0.26 and a CdA of 6.24 sq ft. The Opel Calibra from 1989 also has the same Cd of 0.26 but a CdA figure of 5.40 sq ft - considerably less as the Opel is actually more aerodynamic overall.

So whilst the current Prius has a better Cd of 0.25 compared to the Leaf's 0.29, the CdA may show more difference between the two as the Leaf's high roofline creates a rather large cross sectional area.

My conclusions simply compare the "best" EV with petrol vehicles that can be bought for the same or less money. When buying the Leaf, the customer is already well into the price bracket of some of the best petrol hybrid options so I see no reason not to compare them.

If I was suggesting the customer spent more on my proposed alternative option, I could see your perspective, but I'm pointing out "better" options that actually cost less.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/how-many-electric-car-owners-does-it-take-to-change-a-60W-lightbulb?opendocument&comments#05092011012157DOM2FS.htm Mon, 5 Sep 2011 00:46:55 +0100 chelsea sexton How Many Electric Car Owners Does It Take To Change a 60W Lightbulb?
Hi Ben,

Sorry, here's the link: { Link }

It calculates based on a 180,000km life cycle, which is reasonable even in an EV. The earliest MY calculations are 2010, so I'd assume that CO2 improvements have been taken into account- though it also projects for 2020 and 2030.

The long distance trips are a fair point if you have data on what that average mileage is per year, and average length of trip and exclude any that could be accomplished reasonably in a 100-mile EV. Obviously you'd have to separate out those that would likely be accomplished by train or plane for drivers of either vehicle type as well. But it would be easy enough to figure a reasonable number of miles/yr you think would be travelled in a traditional vehicle, and extrapolate the added CO2 based on the lifetime numbers for the liquid-fueled vehicles in the study.

It's less valid to use a comparison of a specific EV to a specific traditional vehicle- nor to assume that the second vehicle to an EV will always be one of the dirtier diesels, for the purposes of drawing a conclusion about an entire technology. If evaluating only for your own personal situation, fine.

I understand the difference in efficiencies based on speed and aero- though Cd difference between Prius and Leaf is only ~.3, which isn't egregious. Still, to draw a conclusion about the group, you can't pick just one of each vehicle type, and certainly not the best example of a petrol vehicle.

But there may be better studies out there, and I'm happy to look at one you like more?]]>
Hi Ben,

Sorry, here's the link: { Link }

It calculates based on a 180,000km life cycle, which is reasonable even in an EV. The earliest MY calculations are 2010, so I'd assume that CO2 improvements have been taken into account- though it also projects for 2020 and 2030.

The long distance trips are a fair point if you have data on what that average mileage is per year, and average length of trip and exclude any that could be accomplished reasonably in a 100-mile EV. Obviously you'd have to separate out those that would likely be accomplished by train or plane for drivers of either vehicle type as well. But it would be easy enough to figure a reasonable number of miles/yr you think would be travelled in a traditional vehicle, and extrapolate the added CO2 based on the lifetime numbers for the liquid-fueled vehicles in the study.

It's less valid to use a comparison of a specific EV to a specific traditional vehicle- nor to assume that the second vehicle to an EV will always be one of the dirtier diesels, for the purposes of drawing a conclusion about an entire technology. If evaluating only for your own personal situation, fine.

I understand the difference in efficiencies based on speed and aero- though Cd difference between Prius and Leaf is only ~.3, which isn't egregious. Still, to draw a conclusion about the group, you can't pick just one of each vehicle type, and certainly not the best example of a petrol vehicle.

But there may be better studies out there, and I'm happy to look at one you like more?]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/how-many-electric-car-owners-does-it-take-to-change-a-60W-lightbulb?opendocument&comments#09052011124655AMDOMVVV.htm Sun, 4 Sep 2011 23:20:14 +0100 Ben Rose How Many Electric Car Owners Does It Take To Change a 60W Lightbulb?
Hi Chelsea, it's good to see so much quality feedback in here lately.

Believe me, I don't focus on CO2 through choice - I personally feel many of the other pollutants are a significantly higher threat. Sadly, all the world seems to truly care about right now is CO2, hence carbon based taxes etc. so it's those that are published and easiest to compare.

The "10%" argument was from my own analysis published previously on the blog. One example is here -> { Link }

At lower speeds, inefficiency is generally caused by the process of having to speed up and then slow down the mass of the vehicle as you accelerate and brake. The weight of the vehicle is an important factor here and it's why the Prius full hybrid I borrowed the other week was significantly more efficient around town than my big Lexus full hybrid. The Lexus is much heavier and takes much more effort to pull away from junctions and stop for traffic lights. In much the same way, EVs (despite carrying a heavy load of batteries) are reasonably light as you lose all the heavy gearbox, petrol tank etc. that form the drive-train of a normal ICE vehicle. Also, as that battery charge is so precious due to limited range, they have been built to regenerate as much battery power as possible under deceleration/braking - the hybrid can currently afford to be a little more wasteful and still achieve the lowest tax bracket.

At higher speeds, however, mass is less important and it's all about wind resistance and aerodynamics. In my recent experience, the Prius efficiency dropped significantly in both EV and HV modes at higher speeds whereas my Lexus actually becomes more efficient in these areas. At high motorway speeds, the Prius and Lexus aren't that far apart.

In a similar way, the slippery Prius will likely be aerodynamically more efficient than the blobby Leaf at high speeds. If the Leaf had the excellent aerodynamics of something like the Mk1 Honda Insight, then it may be a different story, but it doesn't. The Insight is still a perfect example of this argument with an mpg that proved how seriously efficient it was - at least for fuel economy and CO2.

As for the 2008 DfT/BERR study, you don't link it but I think I know the one. If I remember correctly, it compares different vehicle types, comparing the full life cycle of each, but uses an extremely high annual mileage of 20,000 miles. 20k miles p.a. may now be a lot in a normal ice car but, in an EV with restricted range, I find it a tad unrealistic.

These cars aren't being purchased to do regular long distance journeys and, whilst there are always exceptions to the rule, I can't see many of them breaking 10k miles a year, let alone twice that.

All of the Leaf owners I know of have retained an ICE vehicle to handle their longer distance trips. Unfortunately, in every case I know of, this is also an older polluting diesel. Using an EV for commuting and then a stinky diesel for your long journeys is highly likely to emit more emissions overall than simply have a single petrol hybrid vehicle.

The results of the study, if I remember correctly, were highly dependent on this theoretical higher mileage to give the EV a chance for the lower CO2 emissions in use to outweigh those of manufacture and disposal. If the mileage had been restricted to the likely limited use of 10k miles, I believe the petrol hybrid vehicles would likely have a smaller Carbon footprint.

Finally, it's important to note that CO2 based transport taxation wasn't as significant back in 2008 and most manufacturers only really optimised for low CO2 with their Euro 5 compliant models that were launched ready for this legislation to be introduced in 2011. As a result, CO2 emissions from standard ICE vehicles have dropped like a stone since then.

In 2008, EVs may have looked a lot more favourable next to the current rolling stock and even some of the new options available at the time than they do now.]]>
Hi Chelsea, it's good to see so much quality feedback in here lately.

Believe me, I don't focus on CO2 through choice - I personally feel many of the other pollutants are a significantly higher threat. Sadly, all the world seems to truly care about right now is CO2, hence carbon based taxes etc. so it's those that are published and easiest to compare.

The "10%" argument was from my own analysis published previously on the blog. One example is here -> { Link }

At lower speeds, inefficiency is generally caused by the process of having to speed up and then slow down the mass of the vehicle as you accelerate and brake. The weight of the vehicle is an important factor here and it's why the Prius full hybrid I borrowed the other week was significantly more efficient around town than my big Lexus full hybrid. The Lexus is much heavier and takes much more effort to pull away from junctions and stop for traffic lights. In much the same way, EVs (despite carrying a heavy load of batteries) are reasonably light as you lose all the heavy gearbox, petrol tank etc. that form the drive-train of a normal ICE vehicle. Also, as that battery charge is so precious due to limited range, they have been built to regenerate as much battery power as possible under deceleration/braking - the hybrid can currently afford to be a little more wasteful and still achieve the lowest tax bracket.

At higher speeds, however, mass is less important and it's all about wind resistance and aerodynamics. In my recent experience, the Prius efficiency dropped significantly in both EV and HV modes at higher speeds whereas my Lexus actually becomes more efficient in these areas. At high motorway speeds, the Prius and Lexus aren't that far apart.

In a similar way, the slippery Prius will likely be aerodynamically more efficient than the blobby Leaf at high speeds. If the Leaf had the excellent aerodynamics of something like the Mk1 Honda Insight, then it may be a different story, but it doesn't. The Insight is still a perfect example of this argument with an mpg that proved how seriously efficient it was - at least for fuel economy and CO2.

As for the 2008 DfT/BERR study, you don't link it but I think I know the one. If I remember correctly, it compares different vehicle types, comparing the full life cycle of each, but uses an extremely high annual mileage of 20,000 miles. 20k miles p.a. may now be a lot in a normal ice car but, in an EV with restricted range, I find it a tad unrealistic.

These cars aren't being purchased to do regular long distance journeys and, whilst there are always exceptions to the rule, I can't see many of them breaking 10k miles a year, let alone twice that.

All of the Leaf owners I know of have retained an ICE vehicle to handle their longer distance trips. Unfortunately, in every case I know of, this is also an older polluting diesel. Using an EV for commuting and then a stinky diesel for your long journeys is highly likely to emit more emissions overall than simply have a single petrol hybrid vehicle.

The results of the study, if I remember correctly, were highly dependent on this theoretical higher mileage to give the EV a chance for the lower CO2 emissions in use to outweigh those of manufacture and disposal. If the mileage had been restricted to the likely limited use of 10k miles, I believe the petrol hybrid vehicles would likely have a smaller Carbon footprint.

Finally, it's important to note that CO2 based transport taxation wasn't as significant back in 2008 and most manufacturers only really optimised for low CO2 with their Euro 5 compliant models that were launched ready for this legislation to be introduced in 2011. As a result, CO2 emissions from standard ICE vehicles have dropped like a stone since then.

In 2008, EVs may have looked a lot more favourable next to the current rolling stock and even some of the new options available at the time than they do now.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/how-many-electric-car-owners-does-it-take-to-change-a-60W-lightbulb?opendocument&comments#04092011232014DOMU7P.htm Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:11:27 +0100 chelsea sexton How Many Electric Car Owners Does It Take To Change a 60W Lightbulb?
Thanks for instigating a really interesting discussion!

Fascinating comparison between lightbulbs and EVs, but while entertaining, it's not the right one. Yes, EVs use much more energy than lightbulbs, but I can't drive a lightbulb to work.

Since you focus on CO2 for your comparison with petrol/diesel vehicles, do you have a source for the conclusion that EVs don't offer any benefit at high speeds, and only 10% at low speeds?

The 2008 study by DfT/BERR investigating the impact of switching to plug-in vehicles concluded that EVs offer a 40% reduction over a full life cycle, on the current UK grid mix.]]>
Thanks for instigating a really interesting discussion!

Fascinating comparison between lightbulbs and EVs, but while entertaining, it's not the right one. Yes, EVs use much more energy than lightbulbs, but I can't drive a lightbulb to work.

Since you focus on CO2 for your comparison with petrol/diesel vehicles, do you have a source for the conclusion that EVs don't offer any benefit at high speeds, and only 10% at low speeds?

The 2008 study by DfT/BERR investigating the impact of switching to plug-in vehicles concluded that EVs offer a 40% reduction over a full life cycle, on the current UK grid mix.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/how-many-electric-car-owners-does-it-take-to-change-a-60W-lightbulb?opendocument&comments#09042011101127PMDOMSUQ.htm Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:53:06 +0100 Ben Rose How Many Electric Car Owners Does It Take To Change a 60W Lightbulb?
Thanks for coming back.

Some very valid numbers there and I'm not going to challenge any of them.

My summary response is simply that I don't believe that the lifetime carbon footprint of any of the latest "100 mile range" EV models is significantly less than some existing fossil fuelled powered models that would cost significantly less to own. Seeing as the whole world only seems to care about CO2, no matter how loud I shout, then I would expect the big CO2 solution to actually achieve something more than it does. At low speeds, say up to 40mph, I expect the EV is 10% lower CO2 at best - based on the average grid mix over its lifetime. Above 40mph, I expect it to be marginally worse than some alternatives. I just don't think the currently available models achieve anything, except a big hole in the buyer and taxpayers wallets.

Regarding battery replacement, you couldn't be more right. Anybody who is thinking about buying an EV in the UK should be looking closely at the Renault Fluence and ZoE models. They're a little big greener than current options, e.g. achieving the same range as the Leaf using 22kWh instead of 24kWh , and the buyer is significantly less exposed to future battery problems and costs. The only risk is that the battery leasing price for the second owner may be rather high and push the value of the cars down but that remains to be seen. For the first owner at least, it seems to make a lot of sense. I did some numbers around the Renault battery leasing model in a previous article. { Link }

I absolutely expect the LEAF with have 200 miles range in 2015 - this is what will kill the current model. Who is going to buy a used 100 mile model, with its dying battery back, when they are 200 mile models available that may meet the owners requirements a lot more. Sadly though, this may take charging times up to 22 hours from 11 on a standard home socket but it should at least then support a double speed 32Amp charging option - albeit at significant cost to the homeowner to install.

I don't doubt current LEAF owners will be able to trade-in their existing model against a new one, why wouldn't they? My concern is for those old carbon footprints that nobody wants any more. I don't think there is any way in hell that owners will be able to upgrade the battery pack in any current LEAF model to give it 200 miles of range. If they did, they couldn't charge it in any practical way. This would be like Honda offering to install the engine from the new Insight into the old models, so they qualify for congestion charge exemption - simply not going to happen. Car companies are in the business of selling new cars.

For sure Li-ion will be cheaper in future than it is today but you also need to appreciate that many Li-ion prices are also currently not reflecting their true cost. I'm told current pricing for Li-ion is about £500 per kWh - making a 24kWh battery pack have a cost of around £12,000. This is wholesale, not retail pricing though, you need to add a healthy margin and sales tax onto that.

It will all be good in the future - just not now, that's my point.]]>
Thanks for coming back.

Some very valid numbers there and I'm not going to challenge any of them.

My summary response is simply that I don't believe that the lifetime carbon footprint of any of the latest "100 mile range" EV models is significantly less than some existing fossil fuelled powered models that would cost significantly less to own. Seeing as the whole world only seems to care about CO2, no matter how loud I shout, then I would expect the big CO2 solution to actually achieve something more than it does. At low speeds, say up to 40mph, I expect the EV is 10% lower CO2 at best - based on the average grid mix over its lifetime. Above 40mph, I expect it to be marginally worse than some alternatives. I just don't think the currently available models achieve anything, except a big hole in the buyer and taxpayers wallets.

Regarding battery replacement, you couldn't be more right. Anybody who is thinking about buying an EV in the UK should be looking closely at the Renault Fluence and ZoE models. They're a little big greener than current options, e.g. achieving the same range as the Leaf using 22kWh instead of 24kWh , and the buyer is significantly less exposed to future battery problems and costs. The only risk is that the battery leasing price for the second owner may be rather high and push the value of the cars down but that remains to be seen. For the first owner at least, it seems to make a lot of sense. I did some numbers around the Renault battery leasing model in a previous article. { Link }

I absolutely expect the LEAF with have 200 miles range in 2015 - this is what will kill the current model. Who is going to buy a used 100 mile model, with its dying battery back, when they are 200 mile models available that may meet the owners requirements a lot more. Sadly though, this may take charging times up to 22 hours from 11 on a standard home socket but it should at least then support a double speed 32Amp charging option - albeit at significant cost to the homeowner to install.

I don't doubt current LEAF owners will be able to trade-in their existing model against a new one, why wouldn't they? My concern is for those old carbon footprints that nobody wants any more. I don't think there is any way in hell that owners will be able to upgrade the battery pack in any current LEAF model to give it 200 miles of range. If they did, they couldn't charge it in any practical way. This would be like Honda offering to install the engine from the new Insight into the old models, so they qualify for congestion charge exemption - simply not going to happen. Car companies are in the business of selling new cars.

For sure Li-ion will be cheaper in future than it is today but you also need to appreciate that many Li-ion prices are also currently not reflecting their true cost. I'm told current pricing for Li-ion is about £500 per kWh - making a 24kWh battery pack have a cost of around £12,000. This is wholesale, not retail pricing though, you need to add a healthy margin and sales tax onto that.

It will all be good in the future - just not now, that's my point.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/how-many-electric-car-owners-does-it-take-to-change-a-60W-lightbulb?opendocument&comments#04092011205306DOMRBR.htm Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:32:34 +0100 Ben Rose How Many Electric Car Owners Does It Take To Change a 60W Lightbulb?
Welcome to the blog and thanks for the comment.

Very interesting information, do you have a source for that? Not doubting your claims just, if I reproduce it in future, somebody is bound to ask my source and "somebody posted it in a blog comment" isn't really going to cut it.

In reality though, in the scheme of things, 1% is within the margin of error for the type of numbers we are talking about. So, should be burn off 1%, it's as good as using it all.

Of course, if we do use it all, why are we constantly buying in grid supply from France, Ireland and the Netherlands?

Why would be burn off 1% of our generation and then , as I type this, buy in 2.8% of our electricity from France and 2.5% of our electricity from the Netherlands? Doesn't really make sense to me. Perhaps you know otherwise and can explain?

You claim that "EV batteries can also feed back into the grid at tomes of undersupply" - they can, but do they? I don't know of a single vehicle model on sale in the UK or indeed the whole EU that supports this. Can you name one?

Finally, regarding the question in your p.s. - my employer has a communications policy that prevents me disclosing their identity on-line. I don't represent their opinion, it's all my own, so they're obviously keen that any opinions I have aren't misconstrued to be theirs not mine.

The "about me" page on this site covers about as much about who I am and what I do as I can communicate in public but I'm always happy to discuss off-line with any interested parties. Feel free to use the "contact" page to do so, just as anybody else with an interest in this area is encouraged to do so by the text on the "about me" page.

Thanks for asking.]]>
Welcome to the blog and thanks for the comment.

Very interesting information, do you have a source for that? Not doubting your claims just, if I reproduce it in future, somebody is bound to ask my source and "somebody posted it in a blog comment" isn't really going to cut it.

In reality though, in the scheme of things, 1% is within the margin of error for the type of numbers we are talking about. So, should be burn off 1%, it's as good as using it all.

Of course, if we do use it all, why are we constantly buying in grid supply from France, Ireland and the Netherlands?

Why would be burn off 1% of our generation and then , as I type this, buy in 2.8% of our electricity from France and 2.5% of our electricity from the Netherlands? Doesn't really make sense to me. Perhaps you know otherwise and can explain?

You claim that "EV batteries can also feed back into the grid at tomes of undersupply" - they can, but do they? I don't know of a single vehicle model on sale in the UK or indeed the whole EU that supports this. Can you name one?

Finally, regarding the question in your p.s. - my employer has a communications policy that prevents me disclosing their identity on-line. I don't represent their opinion, it's all my own, so they're obviously keen that any opinions I have aren't misconstrued to be theirs not mine.

The "about me" page on this site covers about as much about who I am and what I do as I can communicate in public but I'm always happy to discuss off-line with any interested parties. Feel free to use the "contact" page to do so, just as anybody else with an interest in this area is encouraged to do so by the text on the "about me" page.

Thanks for asking.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/how-many-electric-car-owners-does-it-take-to-change-a-60W-lightbulb?opendocument&comments#04092011203234DOMQWW.htm Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:18:11 +0100 Ben Rose How Many Electric Car Owners Does It Take To Change a 60W Lightbulb?
Will the grid clean up it's act in the 3-5yrs where the latest "100 mile range" generation of EVs are still on sale? I don't think so.

That's my point. They will achieve something, one day, but not until the grid cleans up.]]>
Will the grid clean up it's act in the 3-5yrs where the latest "100 mile range" generation of EVs are still on sale? I don't think so.

That's my point. They will achieve something, one day, but not until the grid cleans up.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/how-many-electric-car-owners-does-it-take-to-change-a-60W-lightbulb?opendocument&comments#04092011201811DOMQMW.htm Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:15:00 +0100 Ben Rose How Many Electric Car Owners Does It Take To Change a 60W Lightbulb?
1) You're comparing the C segment Leaf, in which BMW have the 1 series, with a D segment vehicle, where BMW have the 3 series.

2) You're comparing what is regarded as a "Premium" brand with a "non-premium" brand. There are numerous reasons why premium brands command a higher price. Some even come from the same corporate umbrella. For example, the VW Golf and the Audi A3 are the same...but different. Both C Segment, but one is a premium model and the other is a VW. The Leaf competes with the Golf, not with the A3. Nissan's premium marque is badge Infiniti - the Leaf is not an Infiniti.

3)You're comparing an old car with a new car. For a true comparison, you should be comparing the Leaf with what you BMW is worth NOW - or with a new BMW, that doesn't have spaceship mileage and still has a warranty.

In reality, you only have to drive around one roundabout to feel the difference between these two cars. A high torque FWD electric car that scrabbles for grip vs. a RWD chassis that will slaughter most of the competition in side by side comparisons.

Whatever you feel, the price argument is entirely relevant. Comparing the Leaf with a 3-series which, at 4 years old is likely a whole generation away, is a bit of a moot point. I think if you had the old 3-series and a new 1-series worth £30,990 you'd also fight over the 1-series.

Financial institutions claiming that any loss they make is a 'risk to society'? That made me laugh :) Of course 'used' batteries still have value that can be offset against replacements, so any replacement cost will be significantly reduced anyway. Unlike the value of my blown turbo. That only has scrap value.

"Financial institutions" are claiming that these cars are a risk to society. I am. I simply don't think they'll at all save their own carbon footprint in their lifetime.

I look forward to hydrogen too. They're essentially electric cars but, instead of carrying around heavy overpriced batteries full of rare earth metals, they have a tank of compressed hydrogen gas. 2 of the 3 atoms in every molecule of water are hydrogen and 2/3rd of the world is covered in water - we're not exactly running short.

I look forward to a hydrogen economy, though perhaps we've had enough of economies that make a squeaky pop when ignited.]]>
1) You're comparing the C segment Leaf, in which BMW have the 1 series, with a D segment vehicle, where BMW have the 3 series.

2) You're comparing what is regarded as a "Premium" brand with a "non-premium" brand. There are numerous reasons why premium brands command a higher price. Some even come from the same corporate umbrella. For example, the VW Golf and the Audi A3 are the same...but different. Both C Segment, but one is a premium model and the other is a VW. The Leaf competes with the Golf, not with the A3. Nissan's premium marque is badge Infiniti - the Leaf is not an Infiniti.

3)You're comparing an old car with a new car. For a true comparison, you should be comparing the Leaf with what you BMW is worth NOW - or with a new BMW, that doesn't have spaceship mileage and still has a warranty.

In reality, you only have to drive around one roundabout to feel the difference between these two cars. A high torque FWD electric car that scrabbles for grip vs. a RWD chassis that will slaughter most of the competition in side by side comparisons.

Whatever you feel, the price argument is entirely relevant. Comparing the Leaf with a 3-series which, at 4 years old is likely a whole generation away, is a bit of a moot point. I think if you had the old 3-series and a new 1-series worth £30,990 you'd also fight over the 1-series.

Financial institutions claiming that any loss they make is a 'risk to society'? That made me laugh :) Of course 'used' batteries still have value that can be offset against replacements, so any replacement cost will be significantly reduced anyway. Unlike the value of my blown turbo. That only has scrap value.

"Financial institutions" are claiming that these cars are a risk to society. I am. I simply don't think they'll at all save their own carbon footprint in their lifetime.

I look forward to hydrogen too. They're essentially electric cars but, instead of carrying around heavy overpriced batteries full of rare earth metals, they have a tank of compressed hydrogen gas. 2 of the 3 atoms in every molecule of water are hydrogen and 2/3rd of the world is covered in water - we're not exactly running short.

I look forward to a hydrogen economy, though perhaps we've had enough of economies that make a squeaky pop when ignited.]]> http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/how-many-electric-car-owners-does-it-take-to-change-a-60W-lightbulb?opendocument&comments#04092011201500DOMQKX.htm